Curse

dgb · May 10, 2006, 04:31 AM // 04:31

BrotherGilburt, your problem is you're talking about PvE. When it comes to balance PvE is irrelevant.

However, the point still stnads that elementalists aren't damage dealers. There's a reason why the B/P build is the most common in the ToPK, and it's because it scythes through that place. It's a build designed to deal out maximum damage while just staying alive - in a build designed for max damage the elementalist doesn't have a place.

Argen · May 10, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Well... that and Barrage and SS didn't get AoE nerfed.

Anyways, I'm a diehard ele player... but in PvP and GvG eles are support characters. Best we can do is a bit of snaring, blinding, warding and such. Our huge energy reserves allow us to spam but Heal Party, but thats about it. As an elementalist, spiking is best done with Air or Obsidian Wave... but its 2nd rate compared to most other heavy damage output attacks. That simple. Pressure spike that the warriors and even Rangers can crank out basically makes an ele a 2nd rate spiker.

Nuke all you want in PvE, Spike there too... Unluckily, in PvP you have to change hats completely.

Tien ak · May 10, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Just to clear up the statement of warriors doing 200-300 damage, yes that is half true as yes we can make you bleed and take off 100 health 'However' their conditions not base damage. So to all new players to guild wars reading this conditions can be taken off very easily a good support warrior with Matr and "I will survive!" can remove all hexes and give him +3 regen. uh oh I named anouther good perpose to warriors oh dear what a shame.

Now on to elementists, Elementist monk is used loads on GVG mainly beacuse of their good support and offensive spells. And bescuse im so kind i'll name an offensive build and a defensive build.

Defense
--------
Smite hex not only does spell cost a small 5 energy but deals out 85 damage to boot if you an a ally are both hexed go up to the necro or nearest enemy and deal out 170 damage!,

Purge conditions anouther good support skill gets rid of all conditions from you or one ally it does however take 20 secs to recharge but it is still a very important spell to have just incase,

Res signet quick and no energy required only disadvantage is its a one time only spell so keep it for your monks,

Aegis Great spell all of you team members have a max of 50% chance to evade attacks recast time is 30 but this spell does last 11 seconds which is not bad not bad at all,

Mist form a very good ele skill makes you invicible agasint Mele for 20 seconds and recast time is only 30 so very important you have this,

Ward against melee this spell is the ulitmate combo certainly when linked with Aegis as it adds an extra 50% against melee thus making all you warriors (opps!) alot more effective,

Heal party very very very important only heals a meger 50hp on all your allies but that can come in great use when helping monks,

The last spell is for you to pick mine are usually Shock or blinding flash.

Offensive
---------
Crystal Wave good spell does 100 dmg but it ignores armor and magic resistance so need I say more

it does cost 15 energy and recast is 20 secs.

Obsidian Flame 112 but causes exhaustion however only costs 5 energy and the recast time is 5 so a good combo with Crystal wave.

Shock 60 damage and the target is knocked down and just to add a bit more power behind it, it deals 25% armor penetration.

After shock do this as soon as you've done Shock to deal a whoping 168 damage on the poor bugger plus it deals 100 damage on all enemies around him.

Enervating charge deals out 50 lightning damage and adds weakness which makes warrior do crud damage and that lasts for 20 seconds oh and 25% armor peneatation

Stoning do this right after enervating charge as it not only does 90 earth damage but knocks target down, and what do you do after that you guessed it after shock dealing 300 damage. Yes ok monks can heal him but its a great combo when warrior is near death, Max hp for warrior is 500 hp so yeah preety good move there.

Ether prodigy or Ele attunement These two spell will replish your energy Ether will do a good job of it but will cost you your health, however ele attument will give you 50% of the energy back but the recast time is a whoping 60 secs

Anouther option is if you are a E/N use Blood is power sacrifice 33% of health but get +6 energy regen or simply have two attuments air and earth.

Lightining orb Deals out 100 damage and 25% armor peneation so a good combo spell.

Ok thats it you got what you guys wanted a good defensive build and offensive don't say I don't give you anything

So this is prof that Ele's are good its just your not using the right skills,

Denshoni · May 10, 2006, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Saying a certain class sucks or isn't good is basically saying that you suck. Any and all classes with the right build can do amazing things. Saying (insert class) suck means you fail to comprehend or come up with viable and useful skill sets for that class for whatever situation they may be in.

Draxx · May 10, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Stupid Comment, Stupid Thread althogether really, eles are FANTASTIC and veteran eles are some of the best players in the game, and are underestimated quite heavilly by most people. every type of magic has MASSIVE advantages.

I just created a Ele as my 6th char and got it to level 20 and am throughly enjoying the sheer power and ways around exaustion and the learning curve it takes to become good with a Ele.

The differance is with a Warrior (for example.) any joe noobleberry can pick one up and go hack and slash, but it takes a hardened elite warrior to solo predition rock, or to save a entire party from being wiped out.

the same is true with a Ele but it is severilly understated and unappreciated by most groups.

gota be careful what you say about issues like this because its easy to make yourself seem silly. its clear unfortunatly you have not looked into the matter at all. you just maybe grouped with 1 noob ele and decided to post a thread about them all as a whole.... you got 4 char slots give 1 a go you will see there not useless. you may hate them you may not enjoy there skills. but when you have played as one til the end of a game the one thing you wont say is that they are useless simply because of what you have learned NOT that you have become attached is what im getting at,

ghezbora · May 10, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denshoni

Saying a certain class sucks or isn't good is basically saying that you suck. Any and all classes with the right build can do amazing things. Saying (insert class) suck means you fail to comprehend or come up with viable and useful skill sets for that class for whatever situation they may be in.

1. The point isn't that ele's suck. See the part about "most high ranked guilds bring ele's." The point is that they suck at dealing damage.

2. There is no "Law of Conservation of Balance" providing that every class must always be equally good at everything and it just depends on the player. That would, in fact, suck, since then the classes would all be the same, no?

Tien ak · May 10, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghezbora

1. The point isn't that ele's suck. See the part about "most high ranked guilds bring ele's." The point is that they suck at dealing damage.?

Ok read my post then say they suck

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghezbora

2. There is no "Law of Conservation of Balance" providing that every class must always be equally good at everything and it just depends on the player. That would, in fact, suck, since then the classes would all be the same, no?

Again read my post it states A good defensive and offensive build that is defintly balanced. But do I really have to waste my time saying how to get round SS? nope, if you don't know how to beat SS you'd better not meet me in HoH

.

Look if your not going to read my post which states a good defensive and offensive elementist build then seriously Shut it, Beacuse it states how good they are. Just beacuse you can't handle you've lost the argument just deal with it.

Any mods out there please if we have either

A) someone flaming at me for posting prof on how good ele's are...
or
B) Still states that ele's are crap

please just close this thread this is for Suggestions not mindless moaning.

Dr Strangelove · May 10, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Is anyone reminded of all the threads that talk about how mesmers suck? No? How about back in the day when everyone said necros sucked? Around the "monk strike" a few popped up saying that monks sucked and you didn't really need them. Assassins and ritualists are getting their fair share of "you suck" threads. Rangers, as any truly l33t player knows, are completely useless and people don't hesitate to tell them so. Which leaves us with... tin cans repeatedly smashing each other over the head. If the game is really this one-dimensional, why don't we all just go play rock 'em sock 'em robots? At least then when you bash the other guy for long enough his head pops off.

Ira Blinks · May 10, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

I dont see how you proved anything. You listed few ele skills and stated that they have a great use, thats it.

Tien ak · May 10, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

God sakes!

And why has america never got favor lol

The truth itself · May 10, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

If Eles are so useless, then why do every balanced team need a warder/earthquaker? Because Eles are the only class with massive AoE and AoE KD skills.

As someone said earlier, stop crying the classes are balanced fine.

I'd also like to see you pull off a good spike with a 6 warrior build.

Ira Blinks · May 10, 2006, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by The truth itself

If Eles are so useless, then why do every balanced team need a warder/earthquaker? Because Eles are the only class with massive AoE and AoE KD skills.

As someone said earlier, stop crying the classes are balanced fine.

I'd also like to see you pull off a good spike with a 6 warrior build.

you joking, right?

Tien ak · May 10, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

I dont see how you proved anything. You listed few ele skills and stated that they have a great use, thats it.

Guild wars is all about skills your moaning how ele's skills are crap yet I've came up with two good builds and I only used Air, Earth and defensive prayers. So i've proved that they are blanced. this game is all about what skills your character has, now if you've got a good Defensive and good offensive skills/spells then what makes it unbalanced?

Come on Ira- Blinks tell us what you would do to make em them balanced.

ghezbora · May 10, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien Ak

Again read my post it states A good defensive and offensive build that is defintly balanced.

Your build is balanced? I think you don't know what balanced means. The word makes absolutely no sense in the context of a single build. You must have two things to balance. But anyway...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien ak

Defense
--------
Smite hex not only does spell cost a small 5 energy but deals out 85 damage to boot if you an a ally are both hexed go up to the necro or nearest enemy and deal out 170 damage!,

15 points in smiting? Gonna be tough for an E/Mo who can't use monk runes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien Ak

Purge conditions anouther good support skill gets rid of all conditions from you or one ally it does however take 20 secs to recharge but it is still a very important spell to have just incase,

Purge? You don't have Martyr or even Draw Conditions, why do you need Purge?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien Ak

Res signet quick and no energy required only disadvantage is its a one time only spell so keep it for your monks,

Aegis Great spell all of you team members have a max of 50% chance to evade attacks recast time is 30 but this spell does last 11 seconds which is not bad not bad at all,

14 Prot, again that's going to be tough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien Ak

Mist form a very good ele skill makes you invicible agasint Mele for 20 seconds and recast time is only 30 so very important you have this,

There is no reason to bring an ele if you are not bringing Ether Prodigy as elite, because there is no reason to bring an ele if you are not using Energy Storage and the only good thing about Energy Storage is Ether Prodigy. It's by far the best energy management skill in the game, but other than that skill Energy Storage is by far the worst primary attribute in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien Ak

Ward against melee this spell is the ulitmate combo certainly when linked with Aegis as it adds an extra 50% against melee thus making all you warriors (opps!) alot more effective,

Heal party very very very important only heals a meger 50hp on all your allies but that can come in great use when helping monks,

The last spell is for you to pick mine are usually Shock or blinding flash.

There is really no sense in an ele bringing Shock. I can't imagine any reason why you would use Shock over Gale on an ele.

This build uses Water, Air, Earth, Healing, Protection, Smiting. That's way too many attributes. Not to mention you somehow managed to spec 15 into smiting and 14 into Prot on an E/Mo...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien Ak

Offensive
---------
Crystal Wave good spell does 100 dmg but it ignores armor and magic resistance so need I say more

it does cost 15 energy and recast is 20 secs.

Or you could do Flame Burst for 1/4 the recharge time so you could actually use it often enough that it *might* matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien Ak

Obsidian Flame 112 but causes exhaustion however only costs 5 energy and the recast time is 5 so a good combo with Crystal wave.

Combo with Crystal Wave? This doesn't combine in ANY WAY with Crystal Wave. Obs Flame actually is a decent spike assist skill, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien Ak

Shock 60 damage and the target is knocked down and just to add a bit more power behind it, it deals 25% armor penetration.

Again what's with the Shock?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien Ak

After shock do this as soon as you've done Shock to deal a whoping 168 damage on the poor bugger plus it deals 100 damage on all enemies around him.

Enervating charge deals out 50 lightning damage and adds weakness which makes warrior do crud damage and that lasts for 20 seconds oh and 25% armor peneatation

I note you have specced 15 in Earth and 15 in Air. Running two superior runes and no other attributes? Have fun with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien Ak

Stoning do this right after enervating charge as it not only does 90 earth damage but knocks target down, and what do you do after that you guessed it after shock dealing 300 damage. Yes ok monks can heal him but its a great combo when warrior is near death, Max hp for warrior is 500 hp so yeah preety good move there.

Ether prodigy or Ele attunement These two spell will replish your energy Ether will do a good job of it but will cost you your health, however ele attument will give you 50% of the energy back but the recast time is a whoping 60 secs

Anouther option is if you are a E/N use Blood is power sacrifice 33% of health but get +6 energy regen or simply have two attuments air and earth.

Ele attunement is useless against any smart opponent they'll interrupt you or drain it and you will have no energy management for the next 60 seconds.

You can't use Blood is Power on yourself. Also, to get +6 regen, you'd need 13 Blood Magic, which is impossible since (a) you have 15 in both air and earth and (b) you aren't a necro so you can't get it above 12.

Run air AND earth attunements? You're going to use TWO skill slots to get 30% energy back on your spells? I hope I don't need to explain why this is a bad idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien Ak

Lightining orb Deals out 100 damage and 25% armor peneation so a good combo spell.

You already have a spike skill in your bar, Obs Flame, no need to bring two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien Ak

Ok thats it you got what you guys wanted a good defensive build and offensive don't say I don't give you anything

So this is prof that Ele's are good its just your not using the right skills,

Your first build is impossible, and even if you downspecced Smiting and Prot it would still be using SIX attribute lines.

Your second build is almost worth discussing, until you realize that your Enervating + Stoning + Aftershock, assuming it miraculously works perfectly every time, gives you 300 dmg every 10 seconds for a whopping 30 DPS. An Axe warrior can spike for 300 damage about every 10 seconds and he's doing 40 DPS between spikes.

So your builds neither prove nor disprove that eles suck.

Now to show that they don't suck, here's a good ele build:

Lightning Orb -- spike assist

Enervating Charge -- warrior hate

Blinding Flash -- warrior hate

**note i'm trying to shut down the primary damage dealers with my non-damage-dealing ele**

Gale -- nail an important target, interrupt, stop a pursuer, etc.

Ether Prodigy

Healing Breeze -- self heal if away from the party or assist the monks

Heal Party

Res Sig

This is a very typical build for GvG. Note that this ele build does not do damage. That is my point. Ele's do not do damage. That doesn't mean they suck. This is a very useful support build.

Total Rogue · May 10, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

warriors might be able to out DPS an ele in certain situations, but i have yet to see it happen =O

warriors just can't compete with a good air spell spammer for damage to a single target, and i can kill all of the mountain trolls in the cave outside of droks forge with my ele in 35 seconds (not a 55 build imitation monk either) - i'd like to see a warrior do that!

ghezbora · May 10, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Total Rogue

warriors might be able to out DPS an ele in certain situations, but i have yet to see it happen =O

warriors just can't compete with a good air spell spammer for damage to a single target, and i can kill all of the mountain trolls in the cave outside of droks forge with my ele in 35 seconds (not a 55 build imitation monk either) - i'd like to see a warrior do that!

Well, a warrior holding a gear isn't going to out-DPS your ele, but a warrior actually using his weapon will.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319

Buoyancy · May 10, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Total Rogue

warriors might be able to out DPS an ele in certain situations, but i have yet to see it happen =O

warriors just can't compete with a good air spell spammer for damage to a single target, and i can kill all of the mountain trolls in the cave outside of droks forge with my ele in 35 seconds (not a 55 build imitation monk either) - i'd like to see a warrior do that!

How many times do people have to be linked to Why Nuking Sucks before they will stop repeating this incorrect information? Elementalists do not do more damage than warriors to single targets. I repeat, elementalists do not do more damage than warriors to single targets. If your elementalist is outdamaging your warrior, then your warrior is not built correctly.

Elementalists can only outdamage warriors when they are able to catch multiple targets in their area of effect spells. Even then, they require 8 or 9 points of energy regeneration to accomplish this. Energy storage does little to offset the energy drain, as it is merely a capacitor. Once it runs dry, energy storage does absolutely nothing for your character.

Evilsod · May 10, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Total Rogue

warriors might be able to out DPS an ele in certain situations, but i have yet to see it happen =O

warriors just can't compete with a good air spell spammer for damage to a single target, and i can kill all of the mountain trolls in the cave outside of droks forge with my ele in 35 seconds (not a 55 build imitation monk either) - i'd like to see a warrior do that!

Congrats... you can lay waste to the dumb monsters found in PvE. Of course this only works when your alone and surrounded by them... don't see that happen all that often in 8 man teams in PvP or GvG. Back in the days before the AoE patch took place, i could annihilate every single griffon and minotaur found outside Augury in 1 foul swoop.

So whats that... 15-25 griffons, maybe 10-15 minotaurs. In a measily 10 (15ish including casting) seconds after agroing the lot of them, i could quite easily wipe the whole lot off the face of the planet.

So thats 1 Gladiators Defence, 1 Balthazaars Aura, 1 Symbol of Wrath, 2 Cyclone Axes. (lets say 6 Smiting, too long ago to remember numbers). Using an element axe of enchantment (collectors item, 15% enchanted)

Glad Defence = average 3-4 hits in 9 seconds (at 25 damage i think it was) = 75-100
Balthazaars Aura = 16 x 10 = 160 damage (with optional 20% mod to pick off the survivors) (176 for the middle value)
Symbol of Wrath = 18 x 5 = 90
Cyclone Axe = about 40 on average x 2 of them = 80

So thats 87 + 176 + 90 + 80 = 433 damage.
Done to usually about 35 ish enemies = 15,155 damage in 12 seconds to allow for casting.

So... did i out damage your ele yet in PvE?

Tongloid Tarthwood · May 10, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

The thing about combat is that combat is not just one long continuous damage brawl with everyone hitting everyone else and monks healing it all with a happy smile and prayers to Dwayna. Combat flunctuates and combat changes. If you've ever pressed the hotkey o in combat you'll know what I'm talking about with the spiky graphs.
The reason Eles havn't been improved is because they don't need to be. Either that or A-net hates eles for some unknown reason but that's a different conspiracy theory. Because combat flunctuates it means that damage in large packets is more useful than the same ammount of damage in small packets.
It's like Willy Wonka said in Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator, "If the doctor tells you take 4 aspirins, you don't take them 1 every 3 hours or your head ache won't go away. You have to take it all at once to hit that headache nice and hard." Just hitting 20s or something is easy for the monk to keep up with. Hitting something like 200 at a time on everybody, even with a bit of regen, is slightly harder for monks.
Or maybe it isn't and I'm wasting my time playing eles. I'll tell you what though. It sure as heck is fun to kill necros who think they're great.

ghezbora · May 10, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tongloid Tarthwood

The thing about combat is that combat is not just one long continuous damage brawl with everyone hitting everyone else and monks healing it all with a happy smile and prayers to Dwayna. Combat flunctuates and combat changes. If you've ever pressed the hotkey o in combat you'll know what I'm talking about with the spiky graphs.
The reason Eles havn't been improved is because they don't need to be. Either that or A-net hates eles for some unknown reason but that's a different conspiracy theory. Because combat flunctuates it means that damage in large packets is more useful than the same ammount of damage in small packets.
It's like Willy Wonka said in Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator, "If the doctor tells you take 4 aspirins, you don't take them 1 every 3 hours or your head ache won't go away. You have to take it all at once to hit that headache nice and hard." Just hitting 20s or something is easy for the monk to keep up with. Hitting something like 200 at a time on everybody, even with a bit of regen, is slightly harder for monks.
Or maybe it isn't and I'm wasting my time playing eles. I'll tell you what though. It sure as heck is fun to kill necros who think they're great.

If you had actually bothered to read

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319

you would know that ele's do NOT deliver better "large packets" than warriors. A warrior can deliver 300 dmg in <1 second with eviscerate + executioners strike.